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1	De: JJ Fecha: 2009-12-28 17:25
Imagino que será porque hace que la gente aventure menos (y también piense menos)

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De: rvr Fecha: 2009-12-28 17:54

Según él: «En otro sitio he mostrado que el número de científicos de prestigio nacidos entre 1650 y 1750 sufrió una importante disminución respecto a quienes los precedieron y quienes los siguieron». Efectivamente, en dicha página presenta un gráfico donde se ve que el número de 'científicos' disminuyó durante esos años. Pero creo que en este otro artículo tampoco se relaciona el descenso en esos años con el despotismo. Y, en cierta manera, ¿no podríamos considerar déspotas ilustrados a los científicos?

3	De: JJ Fecha: 2009-12-28 18:57
Es cierto. En España, al menos, el despotismo ilustrado mejoró más que empeoró la situación de la ciencia.

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De: Doraemon mon mon Fecha: 2009-12-28 21:01

Pues es muy fácil de ver cómo ese despotismo afecta a la ciencia. Y como es evidente, me temo que si quieres ver ese despotismo en acción sólo tienes que pensar un poco en qué tema científico es a) goloso para la práctica totalidad de los políticos del planeta (se insulta de la peor manera a los que lo repudian) b) mueve pasta con la coartada cientìfica como no ha movido nunca ningún otro con esa coartada (más que la exploración espacial, muchísimo más, por ejemplo.) c) es despotismo puro porque habla de restricciones enormes a los mecanismos del mercado y aún de la sociedad (la pasta de nuevo, que de algún lado sale) d) pretende ser ilustrado porque, la coartada científica de nuevo, lo llevan sabios muy pasados por las peer review "y te callas". Como creo que ya sabes de qué hablo te diré que si no lo has descubierto, medita sobre la idea de que los déspotas ilustrados nos han llevado a la catástrofe con las mejores intenciones. En el caso que nos ocupa, nos están llevando por "la senda correcta" en base a un silencio clamoroso en la prensa española sobre unas falsificaciones de datos que tumbarían a dos docenas de fusiones frías. Al fin y al cabo son ilustrados y el despotismo de la mentira es "por una buena causa". Da que pensar la cantidad de gente que, por lo visto, no gana dinero (a diferencia de los políticos y caraduras Algoreros) y tiene una recommpensa emocional y moral por alinearse en La Gran Trola Caliente y "Salvar El Mundo De Los Humanos Y A Los Humanos De Sí Mismos"

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De: Doraemon mon mon Fecha: 2009-12-28 21:08

Y no, los científicos no son déspotas ilustrados. Es una especie de reflexión en la que suele caer la gente de izquierdas o de resabio/predisposición izquierdista: la izquierda, despótica por esa idea de la democracia por encima de la libertad, siempre ha pretendido ser científica. Pero cuando la ciencia se mete en política salen cosas como Lysenko en plan exagerado o como Marx en plan charlatanería: Si una catástrofe planetaria quedara demostrada mediante una fórmula relativamente sencilla como F = ma (pongamos un asteroide en rumbo de colisión con la Tierra) los políticos no harían falta para nada porque nada menos que un 40% de la gente tiene capacidad intelectual para hacerse cargo de las cosas sin interferencias de políticos. Y viceversa, si una catástrofe necesita de los políticos, presupuestos millonarios y charlatanería por kilómetros para evitarse, eso no puede ser científico.

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De: Pirx Fecha: 2009-12-29 01:31

Dejemos aparte lo del CC, pero creo que es verdad lo que insinúa aquí el gato cósmico: esto es cosa de izquierdas. Pero no cuela lo de la democracia por encima de la libertad. La democracia y la libertad no son opuestas de ninguna forma. El problema es mucho menos general (lo de la referencia histórica es puro adorno) y creo que radica en la forma de trabajar del PSOE como máquina de hacer campañas y la forma de elegir objetivos, al gusto de los políticos, no de la gente; y de elegir los medios, a veces absurdos, para intentar cumplirlos. Lo de que afecte a la ciencia me parece evidente. Es lo que se llama "arrimar el ascua a tu sardina".

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De: Doraemon mon mon Fecha: 2009-12-29 10:04

No, no es sólo el PSOE. De hecho el PSOE lo que hace es importar casi la totalidad de lo que hacen y dicen los "liberals" (no confundir con los "libertarians") y darle un retoque para digestión patria. Lo "politically correct" no es invención española precisamente y es un mecanismo bastante eficaz para facilitar la tarea del ingeniero social. Y las referencias históricas no son adorno, Marx puso mucho empeño en meter lo de "científico" en sus cogitaciones, en todas. Y estoy de acuerdo, dicho llanamente, lo de Marx y lo del calentamiento global, o lo que entiendas tú como instrumentalización de la ciencia es "arrimar el ascua a su sardina".

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De: Doraemon mon mon Fecha: 2009-12-29 10:09

La democracia no es incompatible con la libertad, pero si pones la primera sobre la segunda, la segunda pierde. Hay muchos ejemplos, grandes (la liquidación de la independencia de elección de jueces, allá por los 1980, p.ej.) y pequeños (la ley antitabaco, pe.j.) y se hacen a la voz de que los que la ponen en marcha poseen la mayoría de los votos y, aún habiendo, son muy afónicas, topes y perdiendo el punto principal.

9	De: Doraemon mon mon Fecha: 2009-12-29 10:10
"habiendo críticas" a esas leyes, quería decir en la última frase.

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De: Pirx Fecha: 2009-12-29 19:42

Yo no he dicho que se lo inventen aquí, sólo que la selección es a gusto del político y los medios a menudos demenciales. Un ejemplo: la ley antitabaco es bastante lógica, si se prescinde de los detalles como permitir fumar en restaurantes. Pero esos detalles no son moco de pavo, como impedir vender tabaco en quioscos. Sin embargo, al pasar la ministra de Sanidad a Economía, se ha vuelto como un calcetín. También quería prohibir fumar en el coche. ¿Por qué? Por lo visto, hay "datos" de que los fumadores se despistan y hay accidentes. Pero no prohíben las radios o los botones del aire acondicionado. O los gilipollas que van conduciendo mientras vuelven la cabeza a los pasajeros y gesticulan. La derecha no se preocupa por esas cosas. Van a favor del que tiene la pasta, que lo que quiere es gastársela, por ejemplo en tabaco, en cochazos, en colesterarse y en putiferios varios. La izquierda usa las limitaciones como forma de socializar el sufrimiento de las masas. Si yo no puedo, tú tampoco. Respecto a lo de la democracia y la libertad, disiento produndamente. No puede haber libertad sin democracia. Y la democracia es un sistema, que incluye la separación de poderes. Decir que la elección de jueces "es libertad" pero no "democracia" es absurdo, lo siento.

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De: Doraemon Fecha: 2009-12-29 19:58

Está interesante, de veras. "Van a favor del que tiene la pasta," Ojalá. Son tan socialistas como en la izquierda (¿qué es si no, por ejemplo, la democracia cristiana?), sólo que tienen algo más de vergüenza y, por lo visto, quitarle libertad a la gente les es más costoso en términos de votos que a la izquierda. Y la caracterización de la izquierda (del socialismo a derecha e izquierda, volvería a decir yo) me gusta, así que me la quedo con tu permiso. Respecto a la precedencia de la libertad sobre la democracia o al revés, pues que no. El sistema de separación de poderes tiene que ver con la libertad: para que se vigilen unos a otros como prevención contra la inclinación al despotismo del gobernante: da absolutamente igual cómo elijas a los jueces, si por sufragio como en USA o por concurso de méritos más votación de jueces colegiados, como en España antes de que alguien "matara" a Montesquieu parlamento mediante. Yo dejaría aquí el asunto aunque está, a mi juicio, muy relacionado con el tema de la entrada.

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De: Heber Rizzo Fecha: 2011-02-06 10:28

Evidentemente, el peligro de todo tipo de despotismo, cualquiera sea el adjetivo agregado, es su necesidad de establecer una "verdad oficial", incluso una científica. Los ejemplos de Lysenko o de la falacia del calentamiento global antropogénico son más que claros. El totalitarismo debe inmiscuirse en todos los recovecos personales e impedir el pensamiento critico, so pena de verse minado en su poder. La democracia implica la libertad de pensamiento, de investigación, de crítica y del intercambio de información, factores todos ellos que son el fundamento del método científico.

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